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Democracy in America or Modernity in Democracy?

anon_qabo said in #3221 2w ago:

From a twitter post today by Tanner Greer (https://x.com/Scholars_Stage/status/1928597464006738035?t=Cper8b-TzL9_zK8Ggzw-zA&s=19) :

>Again: IMHO Tocqueville is at his most valuable not as an interpreter of things American, but as an interpreter of things modern—what happens to societies when the old categories that defined social and political life (eg “nobility,” France’s three estates) disappear, and men are thrust into a social reality where abstract equality is a guiding cultural ideal, markets are the main mediating social force, and there are few intervening social or political groupings between citizens and centralizing states?

>This process is what Tocqueville means by “democracy.” Democracy to him means social leveling and atomization that comes with the dissolution of the old aristocratic order.

>Many Europeans who observed this process in Europe thought the answer would be something like “bloody anarchy.” But Tocqueville had been to the country where this process was furthest along, and he knew that bloody anarchy was not what he saw there. What he saw there was very different—but why?

>So he has to explain the American of the 1830s. He has to explain many of its unique features. Then he has to argue which of these features are incidental to modernization (due instead to geography, religion, the American constitutional order etc) and which are byproducts of modernization (“democracy”) and likely to be manifested elsewhere. And then he asks which aspects of American culture and its constitutional order actually dampen the effects of democracy. He makes a great of American localism in that discussion, for example. And then he makes predictions for what will happen in countries that ride the democratic wage but don’t do the things Americans in the 1830s are doing—and in doing this he makes some very good predictions for what America looks like in the 20th century. Many of his most famous passages are these ones, where he describes constitutional orders that did not exist in the 1830s, but which look very familiar today.

>Finally he turns his attention back to Europe and looks at many aspects of European culture—poetry, religion, science, industry, and so forth—and asks, “in a general sense cross-cultural sense, how will these things change as equality becomes the guiding social ideal and the social reality of aristocracy and commoner melts away? Will they be like what I saw in America, or will they be different? What does this idea of human equality, and the experiences people have with it, mean for thing x, and thing y, and thing z?”

>Tocqueville’s answers to these questions are often brilliant and always interesting. And if you think—and I do—that the most important transformations of human life happened in the 1750-1850 timeframe, that there things “modern” that distinguish how the people who lived after these transformations lived and thought and worked and fought from those who lived before these transformations—well then I suggest that Tocqueville is the most discerning guide to this revolution.

Our traditional concepts of Liberalism, Conservatism, Communism (as historical phenomena) have been rendered obsolete by the events of the 20th century and bear little relation to the prevailing social order or intellectual paradigm.
20th-century Greek philosopher Panagiotis Kondylis calls this epoch Mass Democracy--a global social formation defined by the atomization of society into mobile individuals and a complex division of labor. Its basis is mass production and consumption, upheld by hedonistic cultural norms. Equality is reinterpreted materially, and redistribution becomes a universal demand. Politics concerns itself almost entirely with distributing economic goods. Traditional boundaries between public/private, State/society dissolve as the State pervades all.

America was early to Modernity.

From a twitter post

anon_jajo said in #3234 1w ago:

I, to my eternal shame, never read through all of Tocqueville's Democracy in America. I'd be interested to see what those specific arguments are for the counter-democratic institutions in 19th-century America and how their lack has affected 21st-century America. Localism, for instance, seems to have declined to a certain degree, partly as a result of internal and external migration. However, there is still a certain amount of localism which shows up in the kind of insipid disputes we have around zoning policy and the like. How can you distinguish localism which contributes to the lifeblood of a nation against that which amounts mostly to petty squabbling? Is there a difference?

It really does seem to me like there was something in the pre-1850 exercise of democracy that genuinely reflected the Aristotelian ideal of ruling and being ruled in turn, and that that structure was lost in the intervening centuries. Is this just the inevitable and insuperable consequence of "mass democracy"? Are the biological and economic structures of mass industrial production such that the transformation into "modernity" is necessitated by every modern nation-state?

referenced by: >>3238

I, to my eternal sha

anon_coga said in #3238 1w ago:

>>3234
One of the obvious differences between early America and now is we went from direct fairly personal rule by gentlemen who had considerable privilege and education to effective social equality at the level of the unwashed masses. Go into city hall and watch commission meetings and the distinct impression is that these people are *not* gentlemen, and much of the dysfunction of modern government comes from that fact. If city hall was populated with 18th century gentlemen who would beat you with a cane for any breach of decorum, we would live in a different world.

So now I no longer think of these things in terms of particular institutions that have been gained or lost. We share the same institutions broadly. What we lack is gentlemen to populate them. Liberia shares the same institutions, and compared to early America, we are basically Liberia.

Some of that is that many bloodlines have been lost, but much of it is the social position of the gentleman, a leisured hereditary rich man who has a social position that affords him the right to personal violence and relatively easy profit. Everyone else shapes up to gentlemanly standards in the presence of such men. But in the early 20th century the depression, the wars, and other economic and social changes broke this class. By the time the 1960s was over there was very little left of that traditional social structure. Bureaucratic modernity is a jealous god.

I re-read "Treasure Island" recently and can't help but notice that the character of Dr Livesey is basically impossible today. He is able to control the rowdy pirate billy bones by reminding him that as magistrate he basically has the personal authority to have him hanged for insolence. Personal authority! What a gentlemanly and utterly lost notion.

referenced by: >>3239

One of the obvious d

anon_jajo said in #3239 1w ago:

>>3238
The elimination of the upper class as a self-conscious, self-contained entity is definitely part of it, both in Europe and in certain parts of America. You did have the transition from an aristocracy based on the ownership of productive land towards a more free-floating market economy. However, I'm hesitant to ascribe these social changes simply to the lack of a sort of aristocracy-cum-bourgeoisie or the decline of the gentleman class, simply because the initial structure of the colonial population in Massachusetts Bay Colony was one of roughly equal yeoman farmers. Examining the socio-economic structure of the North, it really does look like the fundamental failing led to the loss of this emergent political structure and was a decline in human capital. I might even say that there was something in the early American man that compelled him to comport himself in an "aristocratic" manner, despite the lack of any economic structure that would give him the leisure and productive power of a landed gentleman. Part of the story here, thinking specifically of Massachusetts Bay Colony, might be the specific political-military structure that was given by the musket. Armed forces made up of every fighting-age male in a polity, lightly armed with relatively inexpensive weaponry, conduces towards an egalitarian but highly disciplined society. Just as the divisions of ancient Greek society reflected the dominant military organizations of each polis (the Spartiate hoplite class, the Athenian aristocracy of the cavalry and mass democracy of the thetes, etc.), we could see the early political organizations within the American colonies as reflective of the military structure therein.

The elimination of t

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