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How to catch a wife, 2025 edition.

anon_gyxi said in #3572 6d ago: received

>>3553

Anon asks how to find a good woman in 2025. I've been out of the game for a while and experience only generalizes so much, but success is informative, so I have some thoughts.

We all know when we hear of those lineups of perfect princesses that have everything going for them but can't find a husband that there must be something wrong with them. Well the same argument applies to you. If you can't find a good wife, there's something wrong with you. Fortunately we can think this through from first principles and turn the list of possible problems into a todo list of things to fix:

Step 1: be tall and handsome. The incel forums have debated this at great length with great rigor and this is the scientific result. At least you can do something about the latter like grooming, lifting, dressing well, etc, but we don't need to discuss here.

Step 2: be charismatic. The old pre-lookism "game" advice amounts to this. This can be trained, with focus on general social skills, having a strong frame, and knowing how to flirt. Study and practice, anon!

Step 3: have good potential and character. The right girls are like good investors: they can see your potential before it happens. The duller and lower character ones can't see you until after you succeed. There is therefore a signal-to-noise advantage in finding your wife early, and in putting yourself in order.

Step 4: be attracted to women. We live in an asexual age. It's cringe to be heterosexual in 2025 but you need to do it anyways. Notice that girl across the room and develop genuine optimistic admiration for her, then go talk to her. You can filter later.

Step 5: be socializing enough. If you aren't in the room, you won't see her. Not to generalize too hard from my own experience but parties are a great way to meet people. Even on the apps you're going to come off as a sperg if you don't regularly socialize with the kind of people you want to meet.

Step 6: escalate optimistically. Finding reasons to be pessimistic about any given girl instead of going ahead as if it might work is a big mistake. The practice reps at least are very worth it, and she might surprise you. Even if you think it's not going to work, don't cut her off until she's actually wasting your time or you would be spoiling her virtue.

Step 7: avoid situationships. The ultimate high risk waste of time is falling in love with the wrong girl and spending years in limbo or worse bumbling into the wrong marriage. One reason to be explicit early is that forcing the decision makes it harder to deceive yourself. You can't allow yourself to be a naively lovestruct comfort-zombie. You must become a hardended selective breeding officer arranging the right pairing. Save falling in love for the wedding day.

Step 8: be realistic about your own value and flaws. The hardest part is calibrating your standards for who's good enough and who's too good for you. Shoot your shot with the best of course, but if you're doing the rest of this and not meeting two potential mates per year *who are also into you*, your standards are too high. Value of information is high in the teens and early 20s, but by the mid 20s it's time to pick someone.

Step 9: be able to recognize a good woman. There's a ton more than fits here about what to look for in a woman, but while we're on the obvious train, you need to study and reflect on this too.

Step 10: be oriented to real marriage. This was the point of the previous thread. You're not going to succeed if you don't have your strategic priorities in order. Girls can tell, and so can I. A lot of guys don't know what they want. If you do know what you want, your charisma will bend your girl towards it.

I'm sure you'd rather I give you the secret silver bullet formula or tell you it's all hopeless these days, but that would be cope. If I was single today, this is the plan I would be running. Do others' experiences fit with this?

referenced by: >>3607 >>3644 >>3681 >>3695

Anon asks how to fin received

anon_zagu said in #3594 6d ago: received

Great post. This is some of the best, most concrete, concise and actionable advice I have seen on the topic. A welcome respite from the Hieronymus Bosch wasteland of online dating discourse.

To the one person who downvoted: find God. Here is what happened--one of the steps, most likely Step 1, feels out of reach to you. You feel bad and you're seething about it. OP is Wrong! Perhaps you are typing up a long motivated-reasoning rebuttal right now.

Here is the reality--Gnon is present, right here, and He wants you to succeed. "Don't kill the part of you that is cringe, kill the part of you that cringes." Seek sun and steel. Watch some Serge Gainsbourg / Jane Birkin vibe reels if you must. Respect yourself and always remember that fortune favors the bold.

Great post. This is received

anon_none said in #3596 6d ago: received

Being a religious extremist helps.

referenced by: >>3597

Being a religious ex received

anon_gyxi said in #3597 6d ago: received

>>3596
Yes. In particular, it generally gets you #3, #7, #9, #10, and often #8 for free.

referenced by: >>3603

Yes. In particular, received

anon_zagu said in #3603 6d ago: received

>>3597

Religiosity really only gets you #7 ("avoid situationships") and #10 ("be oriented to real marriage"). The list above is about seeking excellence. Mere fertility is a different thing entirely.

Take a Hasidic man living in Hasidic Brooklyn. He actually does much worse than normies on much of the list--especially #3 ("have good potential")---he will statistically speaking, be underemployed and living on gov't assistance for most of his life. And yet he'll have more than 6 kids.

The steps above are good personal advice for finding a great wife and starting a healthy family. They relate only tangentially to birthrates. It's true that religious fundamentalism predicts higher fertility. So does going to prison. We live in strange times.

Religiosity really o received

jewishman said in #3604 5d ago: received

This list gives me a good idea of what you might imagine a good husband to be, but it raises the question of what a good wife is. The list is good, but it needs a preamble, setting out exactly what the young man should be looking for. (My definition might be different. I believe a wife should be trainable, first of all. Thin and pretty, second. Thrifty, third. Sober. Intelligent but without tertiary education, unless it involved learning to groom dogs or perm hair. Supportive but uninterested in her husband's affairs.)

referenced by: >>3606 >>3607

This list gives me a received

anon_gyxi said in #3606 5d ago: received

>>3604
Yeah I'll put some thought into the ideal woman. That one would have to be dual use: women should hear what sensible men think is actually important. Here's an abridged brainstorm version:

The classic resource for the good woman is Proverbs 31. That's a bit out of date though as we don't live in the bronze age anymore. Penelope is also a great example. I'm also a fan of germanic mythology as a source on noble women and their character. In particular I'm fond of the honor culture extremism of characters like brunhild and kremhild. Women should be the sort who would kill you if you dishonored her. See also Tacitus etc. Strong, proud, tall, courageous, loyal, graceful, beautiful, etc. Who can ask for more?

Absolute loyalty and strength of character is obviously a good thing to test for. It's hard to communicate the subtle queues of how you can tell the difference, but asking them about lies, disloyalty, foolish vs high-character women, marriage, sexual morality, etc is a good start. Read and discuss classic books about female character like Pride and Prejudice, Kristen Lavransdottir, etc. Good women have strong (though often quiet) opinions about what is right behavior. You can tell a lot also but talking to her mother.

Obviously we like youth, intelligence, erudition, beauty, health, athleticism, social skills, and all that (did I mention youth?). A good woman should cultivate her qualities and make them visible, but is probably also very humble and modest so this can require some probing. Some less appreciated virtues like ambition, energy, charisma, industriousness, etc are also good things.

People usually misread what is important about what gets called "submissiveness". This is a total non-qualification. The important thing is being loyal, not getting in the way of her man's ambitions and plans, not refusing duties, being willing to take on her comparative advantage in childrearing and housework, willing to trust, not fighting over hierarchy, etc. It's not a virtue, but the absence of a bunch of potentially really bad character flaws. Note these virtues/vices are non-gendered and are appreciated in men as well. A controlling man who fights over household hierarchy is just as bad as a shrew. A good woman can pass the important part of this test while being ambitious, dominant, etc in a masculine way, though they usually aren't. I remember a girl quoted Ephesians 5:22 to me once to try to entice me with her ideological commitment to being submissive and it was just gross.

Physically, most modern women are too fat especially around the arms and belly and this is well over 50% of the variance of female attractiveness and even a large portion of mate quality because it indicates her general level of health, self control, class, and willingness to respond to the preferences of her potential mate. The difference between "perfect", "good", "ok", and "bad" bodyfat levels is enormously impactful at each increment. (Where "bad" is what passes for "average" like 24+ BMI, and "perfect" is like 19-21 BMI for most women depending on hormones and muscle). "Underweight" (BMI <18.5, poky bones) is bad but so rare as to be irrelevant. Men already know this stuff well but I repeat it for the benefit of women.

Similarly, putting in effort to wearing pretty clothes, flattering dresses, well groomed long hair, etc is another huge chunk of attractiveness and mate quality variance. Most women are way too drab, actively hostile to aesthetics and attraction, afraid to dress up, etc. Again it's a demonstration of skill, class, social strength, and healthy willingness to please.

As for things that women think are important but aren't helping her case: career, education (except as rough proxy for intelligence and class), the latest ideological or fashion trends, income, cosmetic surgery (can improve attractiveness if done well but can't improve mate quality), probably much else.

Yeah I'll put some t received

anon_ciha said in #3607 5d ago: received

>>3572
>>3604

I think the commandment to be a hardened selective breeding officer arranging the right pairing (aka step 9) is very much under-appreciated amongst Chads, which this forum and the particular subculture it arises from is in reality substantially composed of. Yes, incel discourse is hilarious, and yet does not really matter in the face of this superior question: what kind of children do you want given the environment you think they will live in? Chad implies highly elevated choice in the matter, but Chad has a tendency to go for Stacy, which typically means mating on a basis of psyops like 'modern beauty standards', 'porn', and other things that diverge from well-considered selective breeding.

It is the will of God that different ecological conditions require different abilities in order to succeed (success is you and your sons off to infinity putting your fuck into women). This is the basis of speciation. Really taking this to heart is a form of cosmic realism that I've seen advocated heavily in the accelerationist discussions on here, but in the individual wife catching case you should be trying to evolve your children.

This is very idiosyncratic and your success hinges on step 8. What precisely is your value relative to the mean of man? More importantly, what do you lack and wish you had? For instance, if Chad (as I am supposing is generally true for readers of this reply), you're probably physically capable and have substantial embodied intelligence / warrior spirit. But do our times really need physical excellence all that much? Perhaps a bit for well-roundedness, but it is indeed Yuri Slezkine's century. Abstract reasoning is in high demand and more of it will probably help your son put more of his fuck into the world. So, Chad, consider finding a woman who has substantially better abstract reasoning capacity than you (please trim the pool to avoid the comorbid 'mental health' issues), rather than marrying Stacy.

This example makes a lot of guesses, but the style of analysis is fruitful and something that I think Sofiechads should engage in.

I think the commandm received

anon_vodo said in #3611 5d ago: received

The average sofiechan reader or poaster has already gone through a selection bottleneck - that of being in or adjacent to the information environment that discusses what we indeed discuss. The advice we might give here to a generally ambitious, intelligent, and probably well-educated individual is different from that which I might give to my sportschad younger brother…

There is a lot of good positive advice above. But seeing as I am single at 33, I thought I might post what has NOT worked for me.

The typical individual here is going to be smart. If you want to date smart women you need to be particularly careful about their career ambitions. I think it is generally good to date a woman with a good career, but the situation I have ran into multiple times at varying phases was pursuing women that were far more interested in their careers than they were in raising a family. Or, they may have been interested in a family, but tied to a way of living that I thought to be kind of anti-thumos and couldn’t imagine raising children in. Be wary of dating women in med school, PhD programs, etc.

So you need to discuss these family + career plans early and make sure that the outcome of these discussions is that you make moves together and that the relationship takes the priority over BOTH of your respective career paths. You want to be successful in your career… but for the both of you. She can and should be successful in hers… to the extent that it aids the gains of your family. Putting your kids in daycare with a cost that is near equal to her working in a high COL area can be a nightmare. So can trying to focus on raising a family when your wife works 80 hrs/week.

When you are younger, it is difficult to tread the line between simp and making sacrifices. Best to make sure those sacrifices will pay off by discussing what will happen in detail later if at all possible. If she cannot handle these conversations… it is likely that some of these moves will not go well. You can explain your thought process here. Have the difficult conversation - you want a family and a particular way of life. Make sure that you don’t make moves for your potential wife that more than temporarily delay your career success (don’t move x-country and abandon what you have going on to attempt to save a relationship).

Sometimes in life, things go extremely poorly for your dating life. Maybe you joined the Army. Maybe you got a set of severe injuries and surgeries which took you out of the dating game for awhile. Maybe you were in a somewhat dire economic situation that required an unreasonable amount of work to get out of. Maybe you moved to a town with no dating prospects because you wanted or needed to advance another part of your life or take care of family. Maybe you came from the middle of nowhere. Maybe you moved to Antarctica. I have made all of these mistakes. Dust yourself off and get back out there.

Sometimes the hyper-optimized advice you hear in elite circles prepares you very poorly for the situations which go south. You get an idea in your head of perfect and your minor deviations from that plan feel like major trespasses. They’re not. Life is messy. I just met a man of thumos who had a messed up life and got remarried at 54 and had 3 more kids. He’s 72 and the kids are star athletes.

Speaking of thumos… I feel like this is an undervalued quality one should seek in a mate. Does she DO things? Take risks? Travel? Ice climb? Dream big? Is she interested in an ~alternative life~? Those who really inherit the future will neither be standard suburban moms nor urban girlbosses. They will be helping their husbands build cabins and alternative communities in Alaska or starting Nietzschean churches in metropolitan areas.

Just a few thoughts… anyway wish me luck on my upcoming date with a highly eugenic breeder I met backpacking last weekend. Godspeed to my single brethren.

The average sofiecha received

anon_tipe said in #3619 4d ago: received

Female honor is underrated. It's also a key piece of the puzzle of feminine virtue and proper marriage. You should live in fear of dishonoring your wife. Not because you fear being longhoused. But because you fear that if she realizes you have betrayed her, she will steal a gun, buy a can of gasoline, then lure you into the shower where she will surprise stab you 27 times in a fit of jealous rage, slit your throat, shoot you in the head, and burn your body, like Jodi Arias. That's true love. When my wife is stabbing me to death in the shower because I stared too long at a slightly younger woman, I will die happy knowing, in that moment, that she will never, ever, ever get over me. I won. It's like the hot/crazy matrix. You actually want maximum hot and maximum crazy. Because it's the same thing. You just have to be hotter and crazier than her to keep her around. Any opinion contrary to this is just cowardice and laziness, the real banes of the male race. Sex is war. This is why in the past men got drunk and beat their wives who in turn beat them back with rolling pins. What's the point of a woman if you don't ever choke her and she isn't trying to scratch your eyes out like an angry cat? How can you even show each other that you love each other then? You don't get the happy elegant tradwife life through moralism and browbeating. You have to FUCK her bro!!!!!!

referenced by: >>3621 >>3641

Female honor is unde received

anon_kawa said in #3621 4d ago: received

>>3619

Are you Irish?

Are you Irish? received

anon_gyxi said in #3641 4d ago: received

>>3619
A large portion of your post is obviously ironic, but let’s disambiguate female honor from crazy. Honor is a kind of sanity, not insanity. It’s just a sanity at a higher level than the usual greedy conflict avoidance strategy most people run. I like the autismo game theory thinking about these things over at lesswrong dot com:

Consider the ultimatum game, which isn't that far off from the game women play against men. The men tell them how it will be, and the women either accept it or flip out and make things miserable for everyone including themselves. The optimal strategy for the women is to credibly pre-commit to being the kind of woman who is going to flip out and make things miserable unless she gets a fair deal. By this strategy the apparently submissive party in the game can actually flip the game on its head and be the one dictating, if they are willing to be “crazy”. Against weak spineless cowardly men, this works especially well. But a just man will give her a fair deal and not accept anything more. Anyways good people are able to work out a mutually acceptable deal and bad people are generally not.

A large portion of y received

anon_leji said in #3642 4d ago: received

I am a girl and I'd argue I have similar issue finding friends, anyone who I befriend intensely is the kind of girl I feel ppl wud wanna date tho.

I feel like they are often the friends of the slightly too crazy to date girls fyi. V cool smart non judgy self assured girls seem to hang out with the super crazy girls. Like the understated friend u don't notice at first who secretly has a crazy iq and amazing work ethic, nice hair. Etc lol

Pro tip / breakfast in bed is underrated
Being interesting is extremely underrated - possibly more important than majority of other factors . Often confused for bad boy-ism - but imo #1 preference and can supercede any weird clout drama girls have abt who their bf is. Being extremely interesting foe one reason or another (but not trying too hard) can excuse being poor or short or smthn imo.

This sounds cruel but in mean it in a good way, it's a testament to actual meaningful human values. My guy friends who have rly above average gf are all relentlessly interesting. Self educate.

Bringing a girl new ideas and worlds is a beautiful thing, also inversely selects for the right kind of values

Also Mebe explains why girls who value interesting-ness r often friends of slightly too crazy popular girl types

referenced by: >>3646

I am a girl and I'd received

anon_puxa said in #3644 3d ago: received

>>3572
This is mostly useless, sorry. You're not listing steps (of instructions), you're listing requirements. Then, only point 8 and 9 are actually useful to current year, the rest is timeless relationship advice. Arguably, all of OP if timeless (not so say mundane) relationship advice, but 8 and 9 at least deal with the specific problems that occupy young people today.

What I like most about your post is that you specified that being "realistic" is about a time trade-off. That's something that people miss a lot.

But what your post really (according to my reply you referenced) needs to be about is point 9: Which women are "good"? Where are they? Which traits are immutable (needs to be good from the start) and which can be changed over time?

referenced by: >>3645

This is mostly usele received

anon_gyxi said in #3645 3d ago: received

>>3644
I’m sorry you don't think it works for you but from my perspective its pretty clear that getting good on these points is the bottleneck for a lot of people. Maybe thats not you though. Are you already meeting all these requirements (except 9) and its not working? Any more detailed plan to get up to spec is going to be highly individual so i think this and not something step by step is the best way to present it.

As for #9 how to find a good woman we’ve had some discussion of it in this thread. I’ll try to fill in a bit more for your direct questions:

Where? I think the concentration varies across social scenes, but its hard to know where the concentrations of low hanging good women are. You just have to socialize a lot in varied places. Some people say europe is way better. That probably works best if you are recently european. People often say things like new york, but among my friends i’ve never heard of a man moving to new york to find a wife and actually succeeding. People say church but it obviously depends a great deal on the church. Try it if you are into that kind of thing. The apps are a humiliation ritual designed not to work, even though most marriages come from them these days. The king is still warm introductions through social groups ie step 5. We had dinner last night with a friend of mine who has had trouble but is now dating a wonderful woman he met in san francisco by following step 5. SF has a bad reputation, but i know multiple good women in SF.

Immutable traits? The most important ones, like bone structure and genetics, obviously dont change. Character also doesn't really change though young people usually are more awkward and unformed than they will be later. Superficial stuff can change but doesn't matter that much. Grooming and fitness and style can improve, and you’ll grow together with time, but can also get worse if you aren't charismatic enough to hold standards. Those should be adequate when you meet and should have an attached good attitude. “I can save her” etc is a mistake. Avoid mental illness as its a major source of character flaws. Hard to tell though sometimes. A lot of this stuff feels like the basics, but i don't think there actually is anything but the basics. The basics drilled well becomes excellence.

Why don't you give an account of what you think the biggest problems are that you would like help with, and then i can address more to that.

referenced by: >>3648

I’m sorry you don't received

anon_gyxi said in #3646 3d ago: received

>>3642
Good to hear a girl’s perspective on #2 (charisma). So lets amend charisma with an emphasis on interestingness. Don’t be a highly correlated normie, as its a sign of weakness of character and lack of charisma. I can corroborate that a great single girl i know well is filtering guys for being normies or not having strong opinions of their own.

Good to hear a girl’ received

anon_puxa said in #3648 3d ago: received

>>3645
I'm the guy that you used as a prompt for the thread. I'm married with children, so I'm not looking for advice myself. I don't think what you wrote is useless per se, as I said, I think it's not tailored to the question at hand. What you wrote could've been written in 1925, for the most part.

The other thing is, as I wrote in >>3553, the central hurdle is actually acting on finding a girl that meets your expectations to a satisfying degree. I'm in general not convinced at all that the mate value of men or women has decreased on average, so I doubt that the difficulties in pairing up is due to not meeting standards of the opposite sex (except the obesity thing, obviously).

referenced by: >>3650

I'm the guy that you received

anon_fufy said in #3649 3d ago: received

In the domain of our careers it is best to play to our strengths in order to be maximally competitive. In the realm of the personal and romanic I think the addressing our weaknesses and filling in our gaps is most important. It is a meme but "try ball room dancing" is somewhat good advice. At least the spirit of it. Trying new things out of our comfort zones makes us more well rounded and more interesting overall. Who's cooler the engineer who grinded leet code and internships every summer or the guy who worked on a farm for a summer then buckled down and grinded. The second is also likely more worthy of leadership positions and ultimately being the man in a marriage is a leadership position.

referenced by: >>3651

In the domain of our received

anon_gyxi said in #3650 3d ago: received

>>3648
I can only go on my own experience here. Maybe there is a big 2025 problem I'm not seeing. But for me I know what I (would) want, I know my value, and know how to socialize and close a deal. That doesn't help the bulk numbers because I already solved this problem for myself. And the experience gained subsequent to having solved it myself is a large part of why I think it would be easy for me now. But what that tells me is that the problem is "user error" so to speak. And when I see my chronically single friends, I am confirmed in that. People don't know what they are doing, are confused in what they should want, and are generally not being the people they need to be.

If there's a 2025 problem causing widespread "user error" its the loss of cultural dominance of successfully married normal people since 1965, and the rise of cultural dominance of spinsters, femcels, girlbosses, and culturally hostile ideological propaganda. But the result is everyone is retarded and confused, nothing more. So to solve the problem for any particular person, the only thing you can do is a) not be confused about what you're doing and b) improve yourself to get the best possible edge on the problem. My two threads so far have been on these two topics. Obviously it's going to take more than 8000 characters on an anonymous forum to inculcate a viable mating culture into the young folks, which is why the loss of cultural dominance of successful mating is felt so hard. But that suggests a third prong of the strategy: put yourself into regular deep contact with people who have successfully reproduced and have stable marriages, and ask them for help.

The reason my advice would work just as well in 1925 is that the fundamentals are eternal. They would work just as well in 2025 BC for that matter, which is why I cite Proverbs 31 as still relevant. What changes, or at least what has changed, is mostly just how sorely the advice is needed, and which parts must be emphasized.

I also don't think this is about collapsing average mate value per se (I agree about obesity, and I think even mild degrees of fatness are also very bad). But I do think improving your mate value and at least having a clear idea of what it consists of gives you more leverage on the problem. That's the spirit in which OP is meant, not as a diagnosis of what went wrong culturally.

I can only go on my received

anon_fufy said in #3651 3d ago: received

>>3649
I will add a bit more to this. If you are young, healthy, and malleable enough you can LARP and become something new. We all have certain limitations but we really can change ourselves to a significant degree while still young and healthy. I have seen a nerdy looking Asain from a medical family become a strong surfer and become accepted into that social group and then become a fireman as a career solidifying him as fully reborn and accepted into his new life as a jock(somewhat). This required a foundation of health, youth, courage and daily effort. I think peoples (mis)use of psychedelic drugs is perhaps an attempt to perform some sort of transformation like this without the daily effort required. The drugs get you into a highly malleable state but that is only once piece of the puzzle, long term effort and consistency is required to grow. Using these drugs to squish yourself into a new person is highly dangerous.

Most of us should not seek to remake ourselves but to add and fill in our weaknesses. We see zuck and bezos and others currently grasping this concept and getting interested in weight lifting, martial arts and roids(bad). It can be difficult to balance personal growth with career growth but I think it is important to understand that significant personal growth can be made even past 40s and I believe can help in someones romantic lives. Once someones health is compromised non of this growth is possible. So that is the foundation. Any type of compulsive or addictive behavior will limit your ability to fix your weaknesses.

referenced by: >>3653

I will add a bit mor received

anon_gyxi said in #3653 3d ago: received

>>3651
Yes its possible to improve yourself a lot and maybe remake yourself. Though i think if this more like the adult natural self overcoming the foolishness of youth. But important to note it only comes from inside. This is why i say you shouldn’t expect to be able to remake other people. With mates its more or less what you see is what you get though you may need to be good at seeing.

referenced by: >>3655

Yes its possible to received

anon_fufy said in #3655 3d ago: received

>>3653
Yes this is why "I can save her" is literally committing SIMPpuku

Yes this is why "I c received

anon_xyzo said in #3696 25h ago: received

Before all that, love thyself

Before all that, lov received

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