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Leibnizian Supercoordination

anon 0x484 said in #2653 1w ago: 66

Continuing off of a few prior threads:
https://sofiechan.com/p/2513
https://sofiechan.com/p/2589
https://sofiechan.com/p/2632

I wanted to address something that had come up in the prior thread on supercoordination, which was the mention of Leibniz's characteristica universalis. I have done pretty extensive research on this topic. I self-published my first book on this topic, and I have a second manuscript ready.

There is a lot to say. But from my reading, what is going on with Leibniz's characteric (also called analysis situs, geometry of situations, mathesis universalis, etc.) is that it does in fact represent an altogether different branch of scientific inquiry, that was not able to emerge, because of certain prior historical conditions. The reason that Leibniz's approach to science was buried had a lot to do with a more political conflict, the priority dispute over the differential calculus, between Newton and Leibniz. This led to a nascent political conflict between England and Germany.

In my reading, Leibniz actually made much more headway into the universal science than he is currently credited with. The reason that he is not credited with this is because his idea of science was based in the prior Aristotelian understanding of science, which was the predominant form of science, prior to what we now understand by that word. In fact, much of what we now know as science was discovered prior to Galileo, Descartes, Newton. See (https://x.com/ScriptoriumP/status/1755693732165189916) as well as Pierre Duhem and Stanley Jaki.

The Aristotelian science became discredited with polemics of Galileo, Descartes, Newton, and later Voltaire, mostly because of its association with the Catholic Church.

In my reading, Leibniz was preserving the Aristotelian science. The Aristotelian science can be understood as based in organic observation, rather than over-reliance on extrinsic instruments. It can also be understood as allowing for the divine, or divine science (metaphysics). In my reading, Leibniz was giving new life to the Aristotelian science within the Christian context, by applying geometrical rigor to its hylomorphic (combination of mind and body) principles.

Now famously, Aristotelian science had already been treated in the Christian context, by St. Thomas Aquinas. But in the scientific era of the early 17th century, St. Thomas' form of science was considered as overly reliant on dubious metaphysical commitments. Hence, Leibniz felt the need to treat the Aristotelian science geometrically, but also still within the Christian, rather than pagan, view of the cosmos. As mentioned, the Aristotelian "paradigm" of science became discredited by mechanical approaches, which were seen as having more explanatory power.

But if Leibniz succeeded in harmonizing the Aristotelian and modern geometrical approaches, as he claims in many places, then there is truly a basis for the Aristotelian science, via Leibniz. And I have discovered a way in which Leibniz was, actually doing geometrical proofs within his writings. Leibniz used an ancient form of rhetoric that was re-discovered in the twentieth century by the scholar Leo Strauss. This was known as the "art of writing" or "esoteric writing". Ancient writers would write very carefully, so that their meaning would be understood by other philosophers, and would be missed by careless readers, or non-philosophers.

Now Leibniz applied this art of writing in the form to geometrical proofs. See (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/phimp/3521354.0015.035/--leibniz-and-the-art-of-exoteric-writing?view=image). The key thing to understand about the art of writing is that the authors who utilize this technique always explicitly tell you that they are doing it. But only the careful readers will put in the effort to understand what they are saying between the lines.

Well, Leibniz does often tell his reader that he is using this technique. And he even explicitly identifies this technique with the geometrical form of exposition and proof. He does this primarily in unpublished writings.

referenced by: >>2655 >>2657

Continuing off of a 66

anon 0x486 said in #2655 1w ago: 66

>>2653
Anon, you're leaning heavily on proper names: Leibniz, Aristotle, Thomas, Christian, Strauss.

And you say Leibniz did geometric proofs in his writings –– esoterically.

Ok, so where's the beef? What did Leibniz actually discover via these geometric proofs? Substantively, I mean. Not something like "a way to reconcile this approach and that." What actual discoveries?

referenced by: >>2657 >>2665

Anon, you're leaning 66

anon 0x488 said in #2657 1w ago: 33

>>2653
I'll second this other anon: >>2655. That all sounds nice OP but where's the goods? Science, at least the kind of science we can distinguish from opinion, is about techniques, predictions, results, etc. How else can you do it? You might *think* you have a superior approach but to me that's just your opinion unless there is some fact you can present me that overrides difference of opinion. We have grown deeply skeptical of claims to knowledge that are not up to this standard. By all means continue though, I'm just saying I hope to see actual results.

>were seen as having more explanatory power.
See this is the kind of thing that triggers anyone of a technical bent. "seen as" as if prediction and explanatory power is a matter of mere opinion. Did it have more explanatory power or didn't it?

referenced by: >>2665

I'll second this oth 33

anon 0x48b said in #2665 8d ago: 44

>>2655
>> Ok, so where's the beef?
>>2657
>> That all sounds nice OP but where's the goods?

Yes, of course, I can give you a small sample of works.

You can buy my manuscript here, which contains line-by-line commentary on six geometrical works of Leibniz:

G.W. Leibniz's Characteristica Universalis: Geometrical Demonstrations in Esoteric Writing and Aristotle’s Metaphysics in Foundations of Mathematics
https://canonic.xyz/p/1FAyx1TA5o8tXw5a3nYKu4Mr1kUcR8tf4u

Or read the full version for free here:
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2Fe415b841.txt

But if you guys might be in hurry, you can read my summary, as i understand it, in these articles:

Transposition of Proportional Analogs
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2Feb02f4b6.txt

Thoughts on Proportionality
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2F641c9252.txt

Scale-Invariance of Grammar in Foundations of Mathematics
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2F884a0738.txt

The Internet as Geometric Object or Problem Whose Solutions Are Decided By Combinations of Right Knowledge
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2Fc8cda47e.txt

Digital Politics & the Reason of the Internet
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2F592ef641.txt

Science of God
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2F181e73c5.txt

Divine Mind
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2F08e07309.txt

And then as far as how it applies to the economics of digital media and bitcoin ordinal inscriptions as patronage:

Venture Patronage: A Peer-to-Peer Economics of Political Philosophy
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2F43a8eb30.txt

Economic Principles for Ordinal Inscriptions on Bitcoin
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2Ffce3cd61.txt

Self-Proving Theorem: A Game Theoretic Proof that Bitcoin Has Non-Circular Intrinsic Value
https://ark.page/archive?url=https%3A%2F%2Fark.page%2Fraw%2Fcb316e98.txt

This is just a small sample of the overall number of works, I Hope these constitute actual discoveries that can override difference of opinion and be up to the standard of knowledge that you hoped for and gets actual results.

referenced by: >>2668 >>2675 >>2679 >>2699

Yes, of course, I ca 44

anon 0x486 said in #2668 7d ago: 55 11

>>2665
I was actually looking for something like "he discovered the equations for electromagnetism."

referenced by: >>2670 >>2679

I was actually looki 55 11

adamjesionowski said in #2670 7d ago: 66

>>2668
Should this be your actual standard for taking Leibniz's larger programme seriously then the discovery of differential calculus suffices.

referenced by: >>2672

Should this be your 66

anon 0x486 said in #2672 7d ago: 66 11

>>2670
> Should this be your actual standard for taking Leibniz's larger programme seriously then the discovery of differential calculus suffices.

No, that's not correct, because differential calculus was widely received within mathematics, from Newton as well as Leibniz, and our understanding of it in no way depends on alleged geometric proofs within an esoteric system. It's precisely the latter that OP is trying to justify.

No one doubts that Leibniz was a very smart guy who developed differential calculus among other cool things. OP's distinctive claim is about an overarching esoteric system with geometric proofs. That's what I'm asking "where's the meat?" about.

referenced by: >>2675 >>2679 >>2690

No, that's not corre 66 11

adamjesionowski said in #2675 7d ago: 33

>>2672
Given the claim is indeed about an esoteric system it's self-defeating to require a feat of exotericism from Liebniz. There is perhaps too much meat in >>2665 but it's worth actually examining. I found "Scale-Invariance of Grammar in Foundations of Mathematics" edifying w/r/t the relation of math and number.

referenced by: >>2679 >>2681

Given the claim is i 33

anon 0x48b said in #2679 6d ago: 33

>>2668
>> I was actually looking for something like "he discovered the equations for electromagnetism.
As I thought, you are in hurry. It seems like you just want your pre-existing beliefs validated.

>>2675
Correct, and thank you!

>>2672
>> OP's distinctive claim is about an overarching esoteric system with geometric proofs. That's what I'm asking "where's the meat?" about.
The proofs are right here anon: >>2665
All seven documents from "Proportional Transposition of Analogs" to "Divine Mind" contains geometrical proofs which can be discerned if you read carefully. They can't even really be considered esoteric since I always sufficiently explain what I am doing within the proofs themselves.

referenced by: >>2682

As I thought, you ar 33

anon 0x486 said in #2681 6d ago: 55 11

>>2675
There is nothing easier than to claim to have, or to have discovered, an esoteric system of great power, whose secrets you too can learn if only you spend time reading my material.

The correct stance towards such claims is to disregard them, as a strong default.

I say this not as someone who disbelieves in esotericism in principle, but as a sympathetic reader of Strauss who believes that esotericism, while real, carries a high price of epistemic justification.

For that reason, the burden of proof for his claim is squarely on OP, not on me. It is perfectly reasonable for me to ask, "Where's the beef?" and to expect straightforward answers, not "read my lengthy stuff."

referenced by: >>2686

There is nothing eas 55 11

anon 0x486 said in #2682 6d ago: 55 11

>>2679
> As I thought, you are in hurry.
As someone who has spent years patiently working through fairly difficult mathematics in the field of category theory, I find the notion that the problem here is that I'm just "in a hurry" merely silly.

The issue, rather, is that you have said nothing so far to justify the effort of further investigation.

referenced by: >>2686 >>2687

As someone who has s 55 11

anon 0x48b said in #2686 5d ago: 22

>>2681
>> There is nothing easier than to claim to have, or to have discovered, an esoteric system of great power, whose secrets you too can learn if only you spend time reading my material.

I didn't claim that I discovered an esoteric system of great power, you did. I claimed that Leibniz relates geometric proof with esoteric writing, which he in fact does, as John Whipple also attests, see link in original post.

Nor did I ask that you read my lengthy material nor that my material contains any secrets,
I purposely sent articles under 500 words.

>> The correct stance towards such claims is to disregard them, as a strong default.

You're welcome to do that, but you haven't.
You asked for "beef" then when I delivered it, you took on dismissive high-minded airs rather than engaging with the substance of what I sent. Which is fine by me, if it doesn't suit you, you're welcome to no engage.

>> For that reason, the burden of proof for his claim is squarely on OP, not on me. It is perfectly reasonable for me to ask, "Where's the beef?" and to expect straightforward answers, not "read my lengthy stuff."

I purposely sent a variety of writings that are less than 500 words, in addition to the 264-page book. I think the explanations I give in those are relatively straightforward if you have read Aristotle, but if it doesn't suit you, it's ok with me.

>>2682
>> As someone who has spent years patiently working through fairly difficult mathematics in the field of category theory, I find the notion that the problem here is that I'm just "in a hurry" merely silly.
The issue, rather, is that you have said nothing so far to justify the effort of further investigation.

Well I do appreciate your comments, I really commend you studying category theory, it sounds like you're very accomplished and smart guy. It's ok, you don't have to justify any further investigation. Keep doing your great work. Thank you.

I didn't claim that 22

anon 0x48b said in #2687 5d ago: 33

>>2682
>> As someone who has spent years patiently working through fairly difficult mathematics in the field of category theory, I find the notion that the problem here is that I'm just "in a hurry" merely silly.

I could easily ask, "where's the beef anon?" I want to see your papers proving that you studied category theory. Please explain category theory with straightforward answers. Please don't ask me to read any lengthy stuff on category theory, 500 words will do.

>> 2668
There is some evidence that Leibniz discovered large parts of Boolean algebra, almost 2 centuries prior to Boole:
https://philpapers.org/rec/GARPOV

And also some evidence that questions on Leibniz's dynamics led to re-surfacing the "hole argument" on Einstein's GRT:
Howard Stein, "Some Philosophical Prehistory of General Relativity": https://conservancy.umn.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/e2816ccc-3be3-4ff5-a3e0-c94c690be899/content
James Owen Weatheral, "Some Philosophical Prehistory of the (Earman-Norton-Stachel) 'Hole Argument'"
http://minkowskiinstitute.org/conferences/2016/abstracts/Weatherall.pdf

referenced by: >>2689 >>2691

I could easily ask, 33

anon 0x486 said in #2689 5d ago: 22

>>2687
> I could easily ask, "where's the beef anon?" I want to see

I literally made no claims about the conclusions of category theory, whereas the whole point of your OP post was to make strong claims about Leibniz's conclusions. Your response is a petty non-sequitur.

I literally made no 22

anon 0x48b said in #2690 5d ago: 33

>>2672

>> differential calculus was widely received within mathematics, from Newton as well as Leibniz, and our understanding of it in no way depends on alleged geometric proofs within an esoteric system. It's precisely the latter that OP is trying to justify.

Our understanding of calculus depends on the foundations of mathematics. If we had an adequate understanding of the foundations of calculus then there would be a solution to Hilbert’s second problem. It was precisely the foundations of calculus and mathematics generally that Leibniz was indeed attempting to justify with his geometric proofs in natural expressions.

Also category theory has about as much scientific validity as deleuze and guattari so claiming it as your scientific cred is hilarious, category theory is the mathematical version of gender studies and rightly deserves the scorn it receives

referenced by: >>2694

Our understanding of 33

anon 0x486 said in #2691 5d ago: 22

>>2687
> There is some evidence that Leibniz discovered ...

From the cited papers, these alleged discoveries are not part of the "geometric proofs" contained within Leibniz's "esoteric system," but rather work that Leibniz did openly that prefigures later discoveries.

No one in this thread has doubted Leibniz was a very smart guy who did much cool work. The dispute is specifically about the "esoteric system." Giving examples of prefigured theories in open work doesn't address the issue.

referenced by: >>2692

From the cited paper 22

anon 0x48b said in #2692 5d ago: 44

>>2691
I know it’s hard for you to comprehend this, but I’ll repeat I have never once used the word “esoteric system” — that is 100% your fabrication / delusion / categorical-theorycel-brain.

If there is a reason why my book doesn’t satisfy your requirement then you would provide said *reason* based on the *substance* of the claims from my book, since you requested of me the *substance* to back up my claim, and I provided my entire book free of charge. Your excuse was that the book is too long and too hard for you. I don’t blame you, maybe you just aren’t intelligent enough to understand my argument. It’s ok!

You're pretty far out of your depth, but don’t worry it will be ok!

referenced by: >>2693 >>2696

I know it’s hard for 44

anon 0x488 said in #2693 5d ago: 66

>>2692
You might try calming down and being less invested in whether random anons on the internet believe you. If you got a lot of insight out of Leibniz, great! Run a book club or write accessible blog posts about it or otherwise do something with that knowledge. But there's many people writing about many things most of which aren't worth looking at even given their emphatic insistence.

If you want people to read your stuff, it has to grab the attention by being good right from the start, or come highly recommended by someone the audience trusts. You are not entitled to have people read your book before deciding. It's on you to convince them that it's worth dozens of hours of focus. People use all kinds of signals to decide if something is worth their time. Frankly, one of the strongest signals that something is not worth any time is the angry insistence of the author on insulting people who say they aren't convinced. That indicates that the author is not confident in the value of the work (otherwise they would shrug and go present their gold to someone else), and not being honest about that with themselves (otherwise they would admit that it might just be ramblings, or might be badly presented). It's a common pattern in cranks.

Fortunately, you are also a random anon on the internet. You can log off, come back in a couple days with a new nym, and start writing about all the cool insights no one else knows that you secretly got from Leibniz. Then we would be paying attention and taking your word for it on your sources. But if you lead with "you have to read my book before dismissing me as a crank" instead of convincing insight, sorry to put it bluntly, but that's strong evidence that you're a crank.

I know another guy who I really respect who is into Leibniz. I'd love to get a crash course on Leibniz and what's the big set of insights I should read him for, which books, how to read, etc. That would be valuable. What's the good stuff that's come out of your reading? A list of links to dozens of blog posts doesn't count; it asks too much of the audience without having earned that trust. Come back in a few days and start a new thread focused tightly on the most valuable insight you got from Leibniz. If it's good, we'll pay attention. But just arguing about whether there's anything there without actually presenting it is a waste of everyone's time.

referenced by: >>2695 >>2699

You might try calmin 66

anon 0x486 said in #2694 5d ago: 44

>>2690
> ... category theory is the mathematical version of gender studies and rightly deserves the scorn it receives ...

This is ignorant nonsense. Several Fields Medalists have done work in category theory:

• Vladimir Voevodsky (2002): His work in homotopy theory of algebraic varieties and motivic homotopy theory relies heavily on category-theoretic techniques.
• Maxim Kontsevich (1998): His work in homological algebra, derived categories, and mirror symmetry involves substantial category-theoretic ideas.
• Pierre Deligne (1978): His contributions to Grothendieck’s work on algebraic geometry, including étale cohomology, are strongly influenced by category theory.

All of these are well-known among professional mathematicians and are easily verifiable via Google, which is far more than can be said for your claims.

referenced by: >>2697

This is ignorant non 44

anon 0x48b said in #2695 5d ago: 11 22

>>2693
Ok I get it, It’s lesswrong club and you guys got each others back. I have presented this to literally hundreds probably thousands of people, and almost every person is as dismissive as you guys, so yes that does weigh on my confidence!

Ok I get it, It’s le 11 22

anon 0x486 said in #2696 5d ago: 55

>>2692
> ... I’ll repeat I have never once used the word “esoteric system” — that is 100% your fabrication / delusion ...

Here are the precise words from OP:
> ... And I have discovered a way in which Leibniz was, actually doing geometrical proofs within his writings. Leibniz used an ancient form of rhetoric that was re-discovered in the twentieth century by the scholar Leo Strauss. This was known as the "art of writing" or "esoteric writing". ...

I'll let others judge whether this is adequately summarized as "esoteric system."

referenced by: >>2698

Here are the precise 55

anon 0x48b said in #2697 5d ago: 22

>>2694
Voevodsky himself said that that the proofs in higher mathematics were growing too complicated to be verified by peer review, that’s why he wanted to move towards automated theorem provers

Voevodsky himself sa 22

anon 0x48b said in #2698 5d ago: 22

>>2696
He did geometrical proof with natural expressions

He did geometrical p 22

adamjesionowski said in #2699 5d ago: 66

>>2693
> I'm just a random anon but here's exactly how I expect you to post
Pick a lane. If you want to do the Yudkowsky thing where you act haughty towards anything you didn't generate or find important, put the nym on so that we can pay fealty. If you want to do anonymous intellectual combat then have the decency to put in some effort to understanding your opponent. I didn't need Retard's Guide to Leibniz to get something valuable out of >>2665.

referenced by: >>2702

Pick a lane. If you 66

anon 0x48b said in #2701 5d ago: 22 22

So again I’ll just recap

> posted a summary of something I found
> Two people ask me for substance to back it up
> I provide it
> they respond w excuses about why they don’t want to read what they asked for

Ok, its fine I can try another summary later since you guys find it hard to concentrate I get it

So again I’ll just r 22 22

anon 0x48b said in #2702 5d ago: 11

>>2699
Thank you anon

Thank you anon 11

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