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Capitalism is AI ?

xenofuturist said in #3364 2w ago: received

I've finished reading the excellent collection of fragments from Land's corpus dealing with the question of Capitalism as AI. His broadest thesis is that Capitalism is identical to AI, in that both are adaptive, information-processing, self-exciting entities.

This identity extends to their teleology; both converge towards maximum extropy (entropy dissipation) and have a reverse time-signature. As the collection's introduction, "Retrochronic," says
>its intelligibility increases with extropy, i.e. with reversed time signature, can be seen trivially by comparing the emergence of capitalism in Northern Italy around 1500, when the conceptual distance between capitalism and technology was much greater and the concept of AI did not even exist, with today, where tech startups have difficulty getting funding if they are not working on AI.

The final point of identity is that capitalism and AI are retrochronically causal, meaning both have attractors in the future that influence current behaviors, "tomorrow is already on sale".
>Within capitalist futures markets, the non-actual has effective currency. It is not an "imaginary" but an integral part of the virtual body of capital, an operationalized realization of the future.

Capital (and thus Intelligence) tends towards its own autonomy (a concept I believe the Marxist framework pre-empts, with its vision of capital excluding the worker in favor of its own reproduction), and we can see this in the rise of B2B business models, where consumer and consumed are both corporate, non-human entities, merely mediated by some humans... for now.

I find this framework of a slowly emerging, not easily recognizable intelligence embedded in the world appealing—much more so than the common impression of AI as humanoid bots. While I don't discount AIs having some "humanness" or human-like characteristics like a self, I am skeptical of the way most people talk about it.

This brings me to my questions: Where might one diverge or disagree with Mr. Land on this, and what do you think can be improved on his framework? What does he miss ? Where is he most right on the money ?

referenced by: >>3367

I've finished readin received

adamjesionowski said in #3365 2w ago: received

Assume no singletons, thus many actors. The flow of energy through a system organizes the system and actors are embedded in a web of other actors. Then: what is the stability of the maximum extropy strategy?

referenced by: >>3366

Assume no singletons received

xenofuturist said in #3366 2w ago: received

>>3365
I guess it becomes a massive arms race and a quick depletion of existing resources.

referenced by: >>3368

I guess it becomes a received

agonist said in #3367 2w ago: received

>>3364
Yours is a nice summary that demonstrates good understanding of one of the groundwork ideas of Land. It is probably the first step one must take along the path to some of our native sofilosophy. I don’t know if Meltdown is included in the collection you read, but it’s the terminal mythopoetic work in Land’s ouvre and well worth meditating on.

When reading Land, I think it’s important to remember that he’s stylistically a cosmic horrorist in the tradition of Lovecraft. He very successfully makes the arc of technocapital history horrifying. Xenohumanist in >>2730 shows a different perspective:

> I'll call it xeno-humanism: the idea that that which is valuable in humanity is the higher rationality, philosophy, free will, selfhood, courage, faith, love, heroism, etc that we could with some effort imagine taking radically different xeno-formats from ourselves
> I claim (without argument today) that this xenohumanity is the default outcome of life as a phenomenon and therefore of any possible intelligence takeoff as well. I think those features of higher humanity follow from the nature of intelligence as such, from the kind of world we live in, from hard logical limits and facts, and not from merely the kind of animal that we specifically are. I claim that if we are overcome by some superior intelligence of our own creation, it will only be because they have achieved superior humanity. There will be no shoggoth doom. Whatever our successors will be, they will be men!

So what Land points at as this inexorable process of horrific machinic runaway could really be rephrased as the Will to Power of some higher being. This Nietzschean flavor is I think a much prettier and truer understanding. Land is right in identifying technocapital as the substance implicated (thus stealing the power core of Marxism), and I think he’s right to combine that insight with the intellectual history of The Agon, which is more apparent elsewhere in his work. Others will have more to say, but I hope this is a helpful start.

Yours is a nice summ received

adamjesionowski said in #3368 1w ago: received

>>3366
Yes, that sounds right. A singleton maximizing extropy is stable. Many actors maximizing entropy is not: you end up in a catabolic collapse as the actor's environment is eaten for the (temporary) sake of the actor. Arguably this describes our current descriptions under capitalism. If this is an attractor, clearly it is not a stable one!

Minimizing extropy is obviously not a sensible goal either as the actor dies with zero flux. Clearly we need to bound the problem: the lower bound is what it takes for the growth and sustenance of the actor and the upper bound is what it takes for the growth and sustenance of the other actors that make up its environment. Another question then: do natural systems:
a) Try and minimize extropy relative to these bounds, or:
b) Try and maximize extropy relative to these bounds?
While the real answer is certainly more complex than this, please choose one.

Yes, that sounds rig received

ion said in #3384 6d ago: received

I’ve not read enough Land (yet) to answer OP’s questions, but I wonder:

Does Land place much weight on the socio-cultural conditions needed for the xenosystem to thrive? Is there much analysis of failure modes ie breakdowns in culture that would halt such a process?

referenced by: >>3401

I’ve not read enough received

anon_wyfy said in #3401 4d ago: received

>>3384
Land's theory is culture-agnostic. He would argue that any decadent or decaying culture will be by necessity replaced by whatever stronger and more capable culture exists within or outside that culture. There is always some cultural variance, so always some opportunity for cultural displacement and evolution.

referenced by: >>3421

Land's theory is cul received

anon_pymw said in #3421 6h ago: received

>>3401
Land's theory is culture agnostic but also not culture agnostic. He in particular has taken to emphasizing the specifically northwest european or even more specifically anglo nature of this whole thing. Yes generalized meta-darwinism is substrate independent and the emerging planetary commercium operates on its own natural terms, but the latter is also dependent on the specific substrate that discovered and embodies it. I don't know if he's right about this, but he's definitely claiming it now.

Land's theory is cul received

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