Anabolic steroids and related PEDs work really well. My friends and I spend a lot of time working out for aesthetics and strength and general health, but we’re natural. Why?
One answer is that those drugs have serious side effects. But steroids have now been around for a while — bodybuilders, gym bros, actors, and more recently a horde of fitness influencers have been refining their stacks for decades. Still I’ve never actually been tempted, or been curious enough to spend half an hour googling what the safest min/max stack would be in case there’s a free lunch.
Some of my objections are aesthetic. PEDs feel like cheating. Being physically fit naturally is a reflection of many socially desirable qualities as well as some potentially morally desirable ones. Moreover I, and I assume many of you, have a default skepticism of anything that radically changes the biological systems that are meant to keep us running for an entire human lifespan. My view is the boring one: that you should try very hard to improve your health via nutrition, exercise, environment (sun / air / chemicals / micro plastics), hygiene (go floss I know you haven’t), social fulfillment, and maybe maybe maybe supplementation of whichever nutrients you can argue you’re deficient in.
My feelings toward PEDs change, though, if I imagine being in my mid-forties. What gets to me is the feeling of slowing down, of being weak, of losing vitality and of being in a negative feedback loop where these make me less likely to exercise, to get sun, to be outgoing and sociable. Right now blasting test is probably more likely to make me crash out than it is to boost my appetite for entrepreneurial risk in a well-calibrated way, but in middle age there will be a compelling case that artificially increasing my T levels is good for my ability to exert my will on the world. Older tech execs and founders are Enhancing to stay in the game -- Elon and Bezos being the most prominent examples.
I can imagine myself moving up the scale of interventionism as I age, and that's just if I hold technology constant. If tomorrow they discovered a chemical that had all of the potential side effects of anabolic steroids that increased IQ by even a little bit, I would have to reconsider everything. What if it was health span, or motivation, or ability to sustain focused attention, or cancer risk, or vitality? Some of this seemed less relevant before it started looking like GLP-1 inhibitors have a range of cognitive effects.
I know that if I were 150lb overweight right now I would almost certainly be on something like Ozempic. My desire to lose weight the “right way” would not stand up to all of the things I’d gain by reaching a healthy weight as quickly as possible.
Of course GLP-1 inhibitors are not anabolic steroids. Still, they mark an outward movement of the Pareto frontier of biological intervention intensity x benefit. A large fraction of large people now have a new tradeoff space where they can risk more for significantly more gain. For them, considering potentially risky biological enhancements is now a matter of urgency.
We're still very near the base of the human-enhancement tech tree that stretches up into the mist. All sorts of bio- and cybernetic-horror might be up there. At some point failing to accept these enhancements could put you at a severe disadvantage relative to those who eagerly climb, while at the same time the most enthusiastic adopters will probably end up like early pioneers of anabolic steroids.
What I’m interested in hearing from this group is: how are you thinking about your own adoption of existing and plausibly imminent biological (or cybernetic!) enhancements? Are there particular effects that you know would cause you to change your stance? How would that change as you age? What wisdom can we seek in the near term that will help us as things get crazier?
I work out so I don't have to worry about my health and the consequences of going to bed late or indulging in a dessert now and then. I also do it to challenge myself and keep my head screwed on straight. I used to like lifting weights in the gym but now I prefer running out on trails because I like nature.
What I notice about guys who get into steroids is that they begin obsessing over their labs, start wearing fitness watches that track their VO2 max and cardiac output, and get extremely irritable if they miss a day in the gym. They get enslaved to it. I think this enslavement will be the self-limiting mechanism for the biohacking revolution. People who shed this mortal coil will also lose interest in affairs concerning us mortals, such as love, entrepeneurship, scholarship, or politics. All their energy will be expended on measuring their nighttime erections.
Regarding supplemental testosterone for when you age, I agree that it's natural to feel worried about it. I wouldn't rule it out in the future. But when you meet roided out older men you notice they don't act their age, they start getting Botox and keep trying to chase things they shouldn't bother chasing after. There can be a lack of balance or maturity that you expect to see out of an old man, and their ceaseless activity contributes to gerontocracy. You really should be slowing down after a certain point.
Some things I’d try before roids: myostatin inhibitors (currently in clinical trials I believe), extra caffeine, dancing a lot, stretching a lot, attending every church service I can, quitting my job, having another kid, microdosing psilocybin. Obviously these are not one-for-one replacements, but they all fit the theme of being rejuvenating or world-expanding
How do peptides and various research chemicals fall into your definition of PEDs? Idealabs backed by the investigative effort of Haidut is already providing accessibility to 'cutting-edge' to a plurality of chemicals. Personally, beyond a self-demarcated line of aesthetics and physical aptitude, I have no real reason to strive beyond 'my' lines. Perhaps after 1-2 decades with the inevitable downturn of innate androgen production, I would gladly look to use a low dosage of TRT.
I've seen a Twitter user by the name 'Thermobolic' who already takes a level of TRT aged just over 40, and I hear nothing but positives, great physique. He also regularly takes T3 (thyroid) which I have felt a certain magnetic pull towards. Broda Barnes has already elucidated the shadow of hypothyroidism that has crept over us since the 1970s and it has become clear that a stunted metabolism has profound effects even to the epiphenomological level.
I would not call it 'bio-hacking' as that holds bitter connotations of neurosis. But experimenting with Thiamine derivatives such as TTFD have had profound impacts on my energy levels and direction. I find it ironic that discourse about being 'natural' is only centered upon usage of pro-androgenic drugs (not including PEDs for sports) whilst pro-metabolic optimization is seen as some obscure Peatian cult practice, despite it's ever increasing necessity.
>>3921 My null hypothesis on drugs in general is that they should be assumed on priors not to be a free lunch. If there were obvious biochemical free lunches, why weren't they already taken by evolution? That said, it's plausible that as large amounts of experimentation, technology, and information become part of the picture the balance can change as we find biochemical supplementation stacks that improve things.
My second big idea here is that there's no need to be the test subject on this stuff. Some of it will be proven and become well established, and some of it is just too early. It's not like we don't already have a way of life that works. This is all risk for marginal gains.
I am probably 90th percentile skeptical of even the idea of medicine, but I will adopt minor things that have become well established medicine-like anti-aging interventions, ideally nonprescription. But those are few and far between and I don't feel the need to push the boundaries.
"as things get crazier" the right move is to slow down and wait for things to be proven, as always. I don't think there's any rush. If I develop issues that require thinking differently, I will think differently.
The straightforward stuff we know just works is sunlight, exercise, good food, lifting, outdoors living, etc. None of us is doing enough of that. I concur with your view here.
>>3924 >>3932 Myostatin inhibitors and peptides are both interesting. And weirdly (IMO) mainstream now -- here's a huge fitness youtuber talking about a semaglutide / myostatin inhibitor / activin-A inhibitor cocktail:
(timestamp at punchline -- tl;dr monkeys on the full cocktail lost a bunch of fat and gained about 1/3 as much muscle, without any monkey lifting -- potentially coming to humans near you as soon as 2027)
In my thinking I've typically drawn the line at stuff that would be disqualifying in professional sports, mostly because it's a lower-effort proxy for safety. Lots of peptides are banned substances. I've recently heard of people recovering very quickly from surgery and other injuries with the help of peptides and that made me stop to consider whether I'd hold onto my (dubious) sense of natty honor if it meant spending another three weeks with a festering flesh wound or a broken arm. I concluded probably not -- if I got sound medical advice from the sort of person I'd trust to make such recommendations (read: not from any random doctor) I'd take a cocktail of peptides as long as I could do some reasonable check on their side effects.
Myostatin inhibitors are a different sort of question. What if it turns out to be an actually free lunch? It seems unlikely, but assume for a second that you can really just put on nearly arbitrary amounts of muscle. Set aside aesthetics as well -- what would be the optimal size for health and wellbeing?
The video above ends on an ideological note, saying not to use steroids -- "[the drugs in this cocktail] outclass them, they will be dead in the water ... That is my sincere prediction: when these drugs come out, they're gonna get us much closer to the purpose of what I call the Aesthetic Revolution. This is a big part of it. The Aesthetic Revolution has one goal: getting everyone into the bodies they want to be in. That is our goal at RP -- [sells you an app subscription]." 2.3m views, released a month ago.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the US adopt myostatin inhibitors like South Korea adopted plastic surgery.
>>3932 > Broda Barnes has already elucidated the shadow of hypothyroidism that has crept over us since the 1970s and it has become clear that a stunted metabolism has profound effects even to the epiphenomological level. Would be interested in recommend reading. I've had a hard time getting into the Peat and Peat-adjacent stuff from Twitter alone.
What I have always found quite strange about discussions like these is that they are almost always about what drug or technique people can use to gain an edge, a quick fix.
The real problem in trying to gain a health and fitness edge is a boring one: how do you set up your life so that you have truly massive blocks of time to be active and to sleep, while also being able to afford quality food and a good place to live? The real alpha in health advances is in your work-life balance.
Every professional athlete trains for many hours a day. Quality gains take many years to manifest. Consider how long it takes a child to develop; it is the same way with your muscles, tendons, nervous and energy systems, etc.
Even if more advanced biology-enhancing drugs (perhaps even mental, rather than physical ones) without side effects are available, like steroids, these drugs will still require much action on the part of the user for the manifestation in the flourishing of the user’s body and mind.
It is the developmental component of biology where the real alpha is to be had, and this can only be had through the accumulation of training time and quality (whether physical or mental).
To this extent I am interested in hearing how others have set up their lives for physical flourishing. (?)
>>3940 Riding a bike to work consistently every day has served me well for a decade. I don't bother tracking my health, but any time I geta check up or even measure anything I'm in a very healthy range. The little bit of exercise before work also helps get my brain into gear for the day.
Towards the overall topic - I drink coffee every day and if there were other drugs with that little risk/cost and similar benefit I'm sure I would use them. But I don't know of any, or even see any coming in the near future.
>>3936 Peat Twitter is always a slippery slope because people often misquote him or simply fail to understand his works. Often leads to people obliterating their hormone panel with 200mg of DHEA.
Start with 'Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness' by Broda Barnes, far more digestible and I would recommend to anyone with a transient interest into bio-energetics. If you're looking for a collage of studies for various compounds, https://haidut.me/ is great.
I've been working out seriously for a decade, natty, and will continue to do so. I think what people forget in the natty vs natural discussions is what the point of all the hard work is. The hard work is important not because of what it gets you, but because it remind you of who you are as a person. The hard work is the truest signal to yourself that you're motivated, dedicated, determined, passionate, focused, resilient, effortful, consistent, devoted, disciplined, have grit etc etc. PEDs will circumvent that, and get you big and strong, yes, but I encourage people to think more about the philosophy of effort vs the outcome of effort.
The reason you go and lift, and lift, and fail a lift but go back the next day and do it again is - yes, to get bigger and strong. But more so to reflect back to yourself who you are as a person. In the end, you'll be 90 years old, you can't squat 315 anymore and you can't bench 225, but you'll know for a fact what kind of person your are
>> 3974 Physical training is closer to intrinsically valuable than you make it out to be. As a man, it has a direct bearing on your ability to get the girl, impregnate her, defend her and your offspring, and stick around long enough to aid your grandchildren. This is as real as it gets for a biological being. The results matter a great deal. Any virtues you develop in the process are just nice side effects.
>>3974 >>3998 This is where I go back and forth. For men throughout history some kind of martial training would be a necessary part of life and you could say all of > The hard work is the truest signal to yourself that you're motivated, dedicated, determined, passionate, focused, resilient, effortful, consistent, devoted, disciplined, have grit etc etc. about that training. But, once guns are available, you're a retard if you choose to train with a sword to defend your homestead instead of a rifle.
It seems important to have some serious physically taxing activity. It's not obvious that that needs to be exercise-qua-exercise.
If we can magic-pill to be physically fit, healthy, attractive -- and moreover everyone else can too -- would we find some other hard manly physical task to fill the void? I think probably, but don't know what it would be.
Yes, PED side effects never seem worth it to me, however much I'd like some help to gain more muscle. Mike Israetel is super clear about their downsides, and about his belief they have taken a few years off his life.
I have been taking sermorelin to sleep better - unlike PEDs, it doesn't nuke your natural hormone production. It just nudges your pituitary gland to recover some of its youthful output.
GLP-3 - cheap and easy to reconstitute - has the same effect. It doesn't shut down endogenous production because the receptors it targets don't have natural feedback loops.
I intend to try the peptides TB-500 / BPC-157 in the near future to help heal several niggling tendinopathies.
I have every intention of taking myostatin inhibitors if they prove to be safe. At that point, joint and tendon health become the limiting factors, and as a result I am focusing more on ATG / Ben Patrick training to improve those.
I am 40 now and will revisit PEDs or at least TRT in a couple of decades. Low BF, good muscle, etc. should all do a decent job of maintaining until then.
No worries, plenty of hard work even with a little pharmacological assistance!
